That may be the case, but Tracey’s the host here, and we already know his position. When the conversation turns into a bunch of digressive repudiations of tangents, not much ends up being said, to the detriment of both parties. A more formal debate or, hell, cross-examination would really help, but I take it few guests want that kind of discipline.
With Douglas I agree that Epstein was not an intelligent man. He couldn't explain the 2008 Great Heist, dropped to his propaganda knees and blamed the poors.
I was coming on here to say the same thing. I know Tracey’s position, I’m subscribed in large part because I think he has been making very good heterodox arguments on this other and other cases, and in my mind he has been winning the argument about the Epstein files; but having someone who disagrees on to discuss the issue and not letting him finish a sentence to my mind at least was discrediting to Tracey. 6 min into the podcast I still didn’t know who the guest was and what the disagreement was, and I gave up listening.
I hope nobody used online dating prior to 2020-2024, as there was no age verification on most platforms. In several states in the US "not knowing their age" is not considered an excuse for avoiding a statutory rape conviction - even if they used fake ID! Even if say, their employer or an online dating app incorrectly vouched for their age! And we now see that among our brave Epstein crusaders even notions like "statute of limitations" or "double jeopardy" are considered to simply be quaint impediments to obstructing justice. Moreover, anyone CLAIMING to be a victim decades ago must be automatically assumed to have actually been a victim!
So I hope everyone screaming "pedo" at the top of their lungs is absolutely certain that every person they ever dated or hooked up with that they have met anywhere (but especially online!) was actually definitely over 18 (17/16/whatever the AOC in your state is) from 1994-2020/2024 or so! And thinks that unless you demand a government-issued ID which you then use to perform an online background check before so much as making out in a car that you are being reckless and 20 - nay even 30! - years later you should be smeared as a "pedo" by any woman who decides to claims so, and notions of statute of limitations, double jeopardy, basic privacy of emails/correspondence, or even proving guilt, etc. should all be chucked into the trash and resulting in your arrest and possibly death in a jail cell.
The irony of it all is if this had happened in Birmingham Alabama instead of Palm Beach, this whole Epstein thing would have take a totally different course. He would have been viewed as another Roy Moore.
To top it all off, if you demand consistent verbal consent at every stage of "seduction" and ... good god.... demand government-verifiable ID, well, prepared for "pussy death". Prepare for a woman creeped out beyond all recognition. Good luck fellas!
Can Tracey ever talk to anyone without constantly interrupting and talking over them? I've seen zero evidence he can and I've watched quite a number of his videos. He can't seem to allow anyone to actually finish a thought. Michael, why are you so afraid to let anyone say what they want to say? It's obnoxious.
Michael does not do himself any favours by being unnecessarily combative. All his interlocutor is saying is that underage girls were very likely messed with and intimidated. Tracey says that those allegations of victimhood have not been adjudicated, but he is critical of the legal system's handling of the case, so sometimes journalism sheds light on reality—no pedo ring or worldwide trafficking op but very likely girls being exploited by a creepy rich asshole.
Lol I get what you mean but that's just his personality. And tbh I get it. It's frustrating to have to reiterate things over/ over. Just getting a baseline of common understanding on this is hard. It was a fundamental conversion cause that Dan guy has a similar personality style to Tracey; forthright, excitable, somewhat tangential. Hey it's not us doing it, so give some grace.
Bogslaw perceives the legal concept of statutory rape (which differs from State to State, country to country) as a moral absolute regardless of context, even when the context is an absence of physical violence, even when the minor (a 17 year old in the Florida plea agreement) does not consider herself destroyed or ruined or a "survivor" (of what? A near-death experience?)
This type of thinking has not only distorted people's ability to discuss sexual violence as a social problem or a class issue, instead of all this hysterical survivor stuff, but it's become so pervasive that it's putting pressure on legal systems across Western countries to increasingly define rape as the absence of consent, without any distinction between violent vs non-violent sexual contact. Couple that with anti-sex work laws and you have a perfect storm of hysteria that allows cops to arrest anyone who engages in transactional sex, even the poor "children" everybody cries about (the 17 year old was not going to be free from prosecution unless she declared that Epstein destroyed her "person and her spirit" to the Grand Jury).
So where do we go from here? I don't know. Maybe raise the age of consent to 18 everywhere, call transactional sex a crime against humanity, and pat yourselves on the back that you're changing the world for the better.
And the very idea of rape ruining women is a product of patricharchy. It relies on conceptualising us a helpless & non sexual. Entirely false. Yes men have more physical & economic power, broadly as speaking. Woman also have agency. Germaine Greer got in trouble for saying " if a woman claims to be ruined by non violent rape something was very wrong beforehand" & "unless there's violence rape is just sex you don't like". I absolutely agree. Greer called for thd bad sex rape be prosecuted less. Also agree
Yes because, you see, it's not that minors are children, it's that women are children.
And the prevailing feminist position isnt' Greer's, it's McKinnon's statement that if a women feels she's been raped then she has been.
But what happens when we live in a culture where women are constantly being told they are "surviving" sex with "predators"? Or that being raped (by increasingly broad legal definitions) is so beyond and above any other experience in their life that they must attach their whole personhood to that experience? What an effing mess.
26 mins-in Australia when a complainant misrepresents their age, ' mistake of fact' applies ofc feminist lobbyists want to do away with it as a defence.
Check out the Dutch Volley ball player who was kicked out of the Paris Olympics for 'mistake of fact ' paedophilia. The press, keen to capitalise on the drama, claimed the complainant/ victim was so traumatised post sexual assault, she attempted suicide. WRONG, she self harmed due to the dude going to jail because of her LIES. But yeah post truth, prosecutorial leadership..." never let the truth get in the way of a good yarn". Its about controlling the narrative & that's what proesectotrs excell at. They're the most powerful person in the right winged arm of the state.
I reckon, as we feel the effects of neoliberalism, more and more we're gonna need scapegoats. Prosecutors have an opportunity to look like hero's, whilst hiding the real causes of crime, structural inequality especially socio-economic.
Such an interesting woman. 6 years ago, I despised her. In the face on new evidence one must change their opinion. I actually respect her, although she is a MRA
Big fan of your reporting on this Michael, but I have to agree with the commenters who mentioned about the interruptions. I get that have you have to do it on shows like Piers Morgan, but this is your own platform and you are hosting. Think about the viewer/listener and our experience trying to follow this conversation.
just thinking, another factor the feeds into how the ended in such a cluster fuck is that feminists, leaders ' sex crimes are the worst crimes', we can't agree about a model for prostitution. I thought perhaps the Nordic model could work, now I've got concerns. Especially for women engaged in street level prostitution (not relevant to Epstein girls/ women) there's extreme danger & the highest levels of inequality between women/ clients. Strangely no one gives af about these females except if they're murdered (Rex Heuermann?)
I guess in Dan’s defense he did come on and attack Tracey from every conceivable angle like the dude in the Matrix. I wasn’t convinced by anything he had to say and he seemed like a bleeding feminist putting on a show for his wife. Though I couldn’t stand to listen to the whole thing I’m starting to be troubled by the thought that Tracey is like the last living independent journalist.
Missed in real time last night but I'm halfway through today and I have kept an open mind and with that, Michael Tracey wins the argument, half way through. Finally we get a substantial discussion. I appreciate that. Thanks, Douglas and Michael.
Michael - honestly you gotta CHILL a little bit. you constantly interrupt and don't let your guest articulate.
The guest was interrupting just as much with short stabs breaking up every few words Michael would say but he’s one of the cools so you didn’t notice
That may be the case, but Tracey’s the host here, and we already know his position. When the conversation turns into a bunch of digressive repudiations of tangents, not much ends up being said, to the detriment of both parties. A more formal debate or, hell, cross-examination would really help, but I take it few guests want that kind of discipline.
With Douglas I agree that Epstein was not an intelligent man. He couldn't explain the 2008 Great Heist, dropped to his propaganda knees and blamed the poors.
I was coming on here to say the same thing. I know Tracey’s position, I’m subscribed in large part because I think he has been making very good heterodox arguments on this other and other cases, and in my mind he has been winning the argument about the Epstein files; but having someone who disagrees on to discuss the issue and not letting him finish a sentence to my mind at least was discrediting to Tracey. 6 min into the podcast I still didn’t know who the guest was and what the disagreement was, and I gave up listening.
I hope nobody used online dating prior to 2020-2024, as there was no age verification on most platforms. In several states in the US "not knowing their age" is not considered an excuse for avoiding a statutory rape conviction - even if they used fake ID! Even if say, their employer or an online dating app incorrectly vouched for their age! And we now see that among our brave Epstein crusaders even notions like "statute of limitations" or "double jeopardy" are considered to simply be quaint impediments to obstructing justice. Moreover, anyone CLAIMING to be a victim decades ago must be automatically assumed to have actually been a victim!
So I hope everyone screaming "pedo" at the top of their lungs is absolutely certain that every person they ever dated or hooked up with that they have met anywhere (but especially online!) was actually definitely over 18 (17/16/whatever the AOC in your state is) from 1994-2020/2024 or so! And thinks that unless you demand a government-issued ID which you then use to perform an online background check before so much as making out in a car that you are being reckless and 20 - nay even 30! - years later you should be smeared as a "pedo" by any woman who decides to claims so, and notions of statute of limitations, double jeopardy, basic privacy of emails/correspondence, or even proving guilt, etc. should all be chucked into the trash and resulting in your arrest and possibly death in a jail cell.
The irony of it all is if this had happened in Birmingham Alabama instead of Palm Beach, this whole Epstein thing would have take a totally different course. He would have been viewed as another Roy Moore.
Right? There's no "Epstein's list" but there's gonna be one looong long list of "pedos" for authorities to pick from in the future.
Yeah indeed quaint impediment to justice
To top it all off, if you demand consistent verbal consent at every stage of "seduction" and ... good god.... demand government-verifiable ID, well, prepared for "pussy death". Prepare for a woman creeped out beyond all recognition. Good luck fellas!
Can Tracey ever talk to anyone without constantly interrupting and talking over them? I've seen zero evidence he can and I've watched quite a number of his videos. He can't seem to allow anyone to actually finish a thought. Michael, why are you so afraid to let anyone say what they want to say? It's obnoxious.
He interrupts on the bullshyte statements. On the Netflix crap. He has to. He has to interrupt. He is the only one in America who is interrupting.
Michael does not do himself any favours by being unnecessarily combative. All his interlocutor is saying is that underage girls were very likely messed with and intimidated. Tracey says that those allegations of victimhood have not been adjudicated, but he is critical of the legal system's handling of the case, so sometimes journalism sheds light on reality—no pedo ring or worldwide trafficking op but very likely girls being exploited by a creepy rich asshole.
Lol I get what you mean but that's just his personality. And tbh I get it. It's frustrating to have to reiterate things over/ over. Just getting a baseline of common understanding on this is hard. It was a fundamental conversion cause that Dan guy has a similar personality style to Tracey; forthright, excitable, somewhat tangential. Hey it's not us doing it, so give some grace.
…and another one bites the dust. Michael, absolute legend. No one can even conjure up a decent rebuttal to any of the novel points you’ve raised.
Bogslaw perceives the legal concept of statutory rape (which differs from State to State, country to country) as a moral absolute regardless of context, even when the context is an absence of physical violence, even when the minor (a 17 year old in the Florida plea agreement) does not consider herself destroyed or ruined or a "survivor" (of what? A near-death experience?)
This type of thinking has not only distorted people's ability to discuss sexual violence as a social problem or a class issue, instead of all this hysterical survivor stuff, but it's become so pervasive that it's putting pressure on legal systems across Western countries to increasingly define rape as the absence of consent, without any distinction between violent vs non-violent sexual contact. Couple that with anti-sex work laws and you have a perfect storm of hysteria that allows cops to arrest anyone who engages in transactional sex, even the poor "children" everybody cries about (the 17 year old was not going to be free from prosecution unless she declared that Epstein destroyed her "person and her spirit" to the Grand Jury).
So where do we go from here? I don't know. Maybe raise the age of consent to 18 everywhere, call transactional sex a crime against humanity, and pat yourselves on the back that you're changing the world for the better.
And the very idea of rape ruining women is a product of patricharchy. It relies on conceptualising us a helpless & non sexual. Entirely false. Yes men have more physical & economic power, broadly as speaking. Woman also have agency. Germaine Greer got in trouble for saying " if a woman claims to be ruined by non violent rape something was very wrong beforehand" & "unless there's violence rape is just sex you don't like". I absolutely agree. Greer called for thd bad sex rape be prosecuted less. Also agree
Yes because, you see, it's not that minors are children, it's that women are children.
And the prevailing feminist position isnt' Greer's, it's McKinnon's statement that if a women feels she's been raped then she has been.
But what happens when we live in a culture where women are constantly being told they are "surviving" sex with "predators"? Or that being raped (by increasingly broad legal definitions) is so beyond and above any other experience in their life that they must attach their whole personhood to that experience? What an effing mess.
Feminists would be far wiser to focus on the structural inequalities that lead women into prostitution in thd first instance. But nahh bad men
haha 18 mins in, how's Dan's 2.5 minutes going?
omg it never happened
26 mins-in Australia when a complainant misrepresents their age, ' mistake of fact' applies ofc feminist lobbyists want to do away with it as a defence.
Check out the Dutch Volley ball player who was kicked out of the Paris Olympics for 'mistake of fact ' paedophilia. The press, keen to capitalise on the drama, claimed the complainant/ victim was so traumatised post sexual assault, she attempted suicide. WRONG, she self harmed due to the dude going to jail because of her LIES. But yeah post truth, prosecutorial leadership..." never let the truth get in the way of a good yarn". Its about controlling the narrative & that's what proesectotrs excell at. They're the most powerful person in the right winged arm of the state.
I reckon, as we feel the effects of neoliberalism, more and more we're gonna need scapegoats. Prosecutors have an opportunity to look like hero's, whilst hiding the real causes of crime, structural inequality especially socio-economic.
Do you follow Bettina Arndt? She does good work on the concept of false rape accusations.
Such an interesting woman. 6 years ago, I despised her. In the face on new evidence one must change their opinion. I actually respect her, although she is a MRA
The Witches: Salem 1692 Stacy Schiff
Further reading: Governing Through Crime, Johanna Simon 2006/07 the guy's borderline prophetic
Write book. Make doco. Ill pre order book.
Recommended reading:
The Feminist War on Crime, Aya Gruber 2021
Big fan of your reporting on this Michael, but I have to agree with the commenters who mentioned about the interruptions. I get that have you have to do it on shows like Piers Morgan, but this is your own platform and you are hosting. Think about the viewer/listener and our experience trying to follow this conversation.
Too bad he had to, “cut it short”
just thinking, another factor the feeds into how the ended in such a cluster fuck is that feminists, leaders ' sex crimes are the worst crimes', we can't agree about a model for prostitution. I thought perhaps the Nordic model could work, now I've got concerns. Especially for women engaged in street level prostitution (not relevant to Epstein girls/ women) there's extreme danger & the highest levels of inequality between women/ clients. Strangely no one gives af about these females except if they're murdered (Rex Heuermann?)
*narrator voice* "there was only one OPR report"
Morgan Freeman reading that line
I guess in Dan’s defense he did come on and attack Tracey from every conceivable angle like the dude in the Matrix. I wasn’t convinced by anything he had to say and he seemed like a bleeding feminist putting on a show for his wife. Though I couldn’t stand to listen to the whole thing I’m starting to be troubled by the thought that Tracey is like the last living independent journalist.
Tee hee hee The world in which Michael Tracey is our final, only hope is- frankly- the world we deserve
Missed in real time last night but I'm halfway through today and I have kept an open mind and with that, Michael Tracey wins the argument, half way through. Finally we get a substantial discussion. I appreciate that. Thanks, Douglas and Michael.
*** not causes drivers/ pathways to crime. correlation v causation
Will there be questions taken at the end?