Not to belabor the point, but on the matter of potential Russiagate prosecutions, here’s something I should’ve mentioned in my unplanned debate yesterday with Matt Taibbi: my general position is that “Russiagate,” broadly construed, is best understood circa 2026 as an unresolved
Quint, I’d argue that he counterfeit elector scheme prior to J6 is also a coup, albeit using pseudo-legal underpinnings. J6 was just the final attempt to get Pence to carry the ball across the goal line.
As to the article, I agree almost completely except for the Trump prosecution regarding classified documents. That one was completely legit and warranted. Had he turned them over once discovered then there’s no crime there as one can’t prove intent. But once he lies about turning them all over and starts to hide them in different locations now the obstruction and storage crime elements are fully manifested. As someone who once carried a TS I’d have been prosecuted for that without a shred of doubt
Yes, Michael. Unlike the unseemly riot of J6, Russigate was an actual coup d'é·tat. Insular and cryptically guarded, but a legit attempt to undermine and eventually overthrow a duly elected President. I enjoyed the debate between you and Matt, but I gotta go with Matt on this one.
You just spent hours looking up words that serve no purpose other than to DESCRIBE YOU OWN POMPOUS IGNORANCE of the facts in the "Russiagate" matter.
"Russiagate" isn't and never was the major problem.
"SPYGATE" which preceded "Russiagate" and directly TRIGGERED it in its entirety is THE PROBLEM!
So what is "Spygate."
"Spygate" is quite simply The Obama Administration WEAPONIZING the entire Executive Branch of The United States Federal Government to SPY ON and ATTACK their POLITICAL opposition.
It began with Lois Learner and The IRS scandal. Then after getting CAUGHT doing that, Team Obama went nuclear. They just started using the nation's most top secret spying powers and authorities against their opposition. Access to the Top Secret NSA Database was given to partisan DNC operatives(A terminal was installed in a Perkins Coie Office FFS), subsequently The FISA court, FISA warrants and National Security Letters were issued after NSA cut off contractor access to The NSA Database. You might remember Admiral Rodgers of The NSA SHUTTING THIS DOWN in early 2016.
Obama BROKE EVERY RULE IN THE CONSTITUTION! He did it knowingly and blatantly. WHICH IS WHY "RUSSIAGATE" happened. Barack Obama is a criminal. He HAD TO COVER UP HIS CRIMES!
So Obama took Hillary's risible "Russia Collusion Hoax" and injected it right into the mainstream of The CIA, The FBI, The DOJ and The DOJ National Security division. Which led directly to all of the events you mentioned in your article.
How YOU MISSED THE GENESIS of that stupid hoax is beyond me. Why on earth would Obama be so damn stupid as to let all of this mess happen?
Because he WAS GUILTY of MASSIVE CRIMES against The American People.
It's the only thing that makes any sense Michael. The arrogant bastard never thought his side would lose an election again. He made a fatal miscalculation.
He's about to go down in flames for it. THAT is the outcome Trump and his supporters are looking for Michael, it's not "retribution." It's known by it's actual name....JUSTICE!
Americans will settle for nothing less. Research more, look up fancy words less, you won't look so ignorant of the actual facts in the future.
I think you and Matt are talking past each other somewhat. Matt’s view, from extensive reporting, is that Russiagate involved violations that can be prosecuted under current law (and should be, in his view).
I don’t think you are refuting this reporting, so much as saying 1) Trump has no interest in reform, or principle, only himself; 2) From the podcast, you apparently have a radical anti-carceral view that almost no one should be prosecuted for anything. So things like leaking classified information, lying to Congress, abuse of power, etc. should not be illegal.
I think it’s obvious that Trump isn’t motivated by ideals. But that’s a separate issue from the questions of whether certain actions should be illegal; what should happen when high-ranking officials violate the law; and whether they did violate the law during Russiagate.
I still don't follow what specific statutes were allegedly violated, and by who, such that prosecuting unspecified persons "for Russiagate" would be such an obviously open-and-shut case? That's why I maintain it's fundamentally a political problem, to be redressed with political remedies, rather than with the blunt instrument of punitive criminal law.
I don't have a "radical anti-carceral view," per se, I just have an instinctive skepticism of, and oftentimes, yes, antipathy toward, the aggressive prosecutorial powers of the state. Hence my instinctive general affinity for defense attorneys (trying to keep people out of prison) versus prosecutors (trying to throw people in prison) and my instinctive affinity for civil liberties (limiting the government's ability to throw people in prison).
This doesn't mean I'm espousing some "radical abolitionism" ideology or anything. But sure, in general, my view is that whether to throw someone in prison should ideally be dictated by their harm-causing potential, and evaluating whether depriving their liberty is necessary to prevent future harm. Go back and read the stuff I wrote in 2021-2022 about the January 6 defendants who were ridiculously thrown in prison, even if the state was able to establish to a jury that they technically did something "illegal." There are ways to penalize things like "lying to Congress" without immediately leaping to "throw them in prison." That reflexive carceral impulse is a uniquely American pathology.
And yeah, I do think the classification regimen is almost entirely bullshit, so why would I support throwing people in prison for technically violating some vague bullshit law around information concealment protocols? I want more information leaked, not less...? Unless the leaker is somehow an active threat to the public, in a manner that can be rationally established, I see no reason why they should be thrown in prison? Whereas, if a genuinely sadistic serial child rapist would continue raping children but for being locked in a government cage, that seems like a far more defensible case for incarceration.
On most matters concerning incarceration, I would tend to agree with you. But I would add another reason for punishment to Switzer's list (justice for victims/harm mitigation/deterrence): retribution. The people who knowingly propagated the Russiagate hoax deserve to be punished. Jail time? Maybe seize their assets instead. Great debate though.
Well, at least you said the necessary about those two unfortunate three-letter guys ridiculously sanctified ever after. America's Scumbag Dynasty.
Re Russiagate? Don't all these things seem awfully seditiousy and insurrectiony? But I guess they always iz, ain't they? Me, I voted for Trump for the first and presumably only time in 2024 and I'd like him to put all the bums in jail, or at least bankrupt them via legal expenses--though even that might be denied us since dark money will likely pay their lawyers--and--cue that line from Shakespeare. Truer words, etc.
Oh well. Political systems seem to follow not the Roman or Greek models but that of the Egyptian priesthood bureaucracy which allowed no heresies against their minutely-crafted orthodoxies. So we haven't evolved at all, have we?
Quint, I’d argue that he counterfeit elector scheme prior to J6 is also a coup, albeit using pseudo-legal underpinnings. J6 was just the final attempt to get Pence to carry the ball across the goal line.
As to the article, I agree almost completely except for the Trump prosecution regarding classified documents. That one was completely legit and warranted. Had he turned them over once discovered then there’s no crime there as one can’t prove intent. But once he lies about turning them all over and starts to hide them in different locations now the obstruction and storage crime elements are fully manifested. As someone who once carried a TS I’d have been prosecuted for that without a shred of doubt
Yes, Michael. Unlike the unseemly riot of J6, Russigate was an actual coup d'é·tat. Insular and cryptically guarded, but a legit attempt to undermine and eventually overthrow a duly elected President. I enjoyed the debate between you and Matt, but I gotta go with Matt on this one.
I still think it's funny that somebody as temperant as Matt even got pissed at Michael. 🤣
JFC dude... PUT THE THESAURUS DOWN!
You just spent hours looking up words that serve no purpose other than to DESCRIBE YOU OWN POMPOUS IGNORANCE of the facts in the "Russiagate" matter.
"Russiagate" isn't and never was the major problem.
"SPYGATE" which preceded "Russiagate" and directly TRIGGERED it in its entirety is THE PROBLEM!
So what is "Spygate."
"Spygate" is quite simply The Obama Administration WEAPONIZING the entire Executive Branch of The United States Federal Government to SPY ON and ATTACK their POLITICAL opposition.
It began with Lois Learner and The IRS scandal. Then after getting CAUGHT doing that, Team Obama went nuclear. They just started using the nation's most top secret spying powers and authorities against their opposition. Access to the Top Secret NSA Database was given to partisan DNC operatives(A terminal was installed in a Perkins Coie Office FFS), subsequently The FISA court, FISA warrants and National Security Letters were issued after NSA cut off contractor access to The NSA Database. You might remember Admiral Rodgers of The NSA SHUTTING THIS DOWN in early 2016.
Obama BROKE EVERY RULE IN THE CONSTITUTION! He did it knowingly and blatantly. WHICH IS WHY "RUSSIAGATE" happened. Barack Obama is a criminal. He HAD TO COVER UP HIS CRIMES!
So Obama took Hillary's risible "Russia Collusion Hoax" and injected it right into the mainstream of The CIA, The FBI, The DOJ and The DOJ National Security division. Which led directly to all of the events you mentioned in your article.
How YOU MISSED THE GENESIS of that stupid hoax is beyond me. Why on earth would Obama be so damn stupid as to let all of this mess happen?
Because he WAS GUILTY of MASSIVE CRIMES against The American People.
It's the only thing that makes any sense Michael. The arrogant bastard never thought his side would lose an election again. He made a fatal miscalculation.
He's about to go down in flames for it. THAT is the outcome Trump and his supporters are looking for Michael, it's not "retribution." It's known by it's actual name....JUSTICE!
Americans will settle for nothing less. Research more, look up fancy words less, you won't look so ignorant of the actual facts in the future.
You make a great argument, Michael, but it could have been longer. Don't stop when you are ahead.
Ayup. All true and very depressing.
I think you and Matt are talking past each other somewhat. Matt’s view, from extensive reporting, is that Russiagate involved violations that can be prosecuted under current law (and should be, in his view).
I don’t think you are refuting this reporting, so much as saying 1) Trump has no interest in reform, or principle, only himself; 2) From the podcast, you apparently have a radical anti-carceral view that almost no one should be prosecuted for anything. So things like leaking classified information, lying to Congress, abuse of power, etc. should not be illegal.
I think it’s obvious that Trump isn’t motivated by ideals. But that’s a separate issue from the questions of whether certain actions should be illegal; what should happen when high-ranking officials violate the law; and whether they did violate the law during Russiagate.
I still don't follow what specific statutes were allegedly violated, and by who, such that prosecuting unspecified persons "for Russiagate" would be such an obviously open-and-shut case? That's why I maintain it's fundamentally a political problem, to be redressed with political remedies, rather than with the blunt instrument of punitive criminal law.
I don't have a "radical anti-carceral view," per se, I just have an instinctive skepticism of, and oftentimes, yes, antipathy toward, the aggressive prosecutorial powers of the state. Hence my instinctive general affinity for defense attorneys (trying to keep people out of prison) versus prosecutors (trying to throw people in prison) and my instinctive affinity for civil liberties (limiting the government's ability to throw people in prison).
This doesn't mean I'm espousing some "radical abolitionism" ideology or anything. But sure, in general, my view is that whether to throw someone in prison should ideally be dictated by their harm-causing potential, and evaluating whether depriving their liberty is necessary to prevent future harm. Go back and read the stuff I wrote in 2021-2022 about the January 6 defendants who were ridiculously thrown in prison, even if the state was able to establish to a jury that they technically did something "illegal." There are ways to penalize things like "lying to Congress" without immediately leaping to "throw them in prison." That reflexive carceral impulse is a uniquely American pathology.
And yeah, I do think the classification regimen is almost entirely bullshit, so why would I support throwing people in prison for technically violating some vague bullshit law around information concealment protocols? I want more information leaked, not less...? Unless the leaker is somehow an active threat to the public, in a manner that can be rationally established, I see no reason why they should be thrown in prison? Whereas, if a genuinely sadistic serial child rapist would continue raping children but for being locked in a government cage, that seems like a far more defensible case for incarceration.
Even if you could identify a crime, the alleged criminal acts took place in 2016, and the 5-year statute of limitations has long since run.
On most matters concerning incarceration, I would tend to agree with you. But I would add another reason for punishment to Switzer's list (justice for victims/harm mitigation/deterrence): retribution. The people who knowingly propagated the Russiagate hoax deserve to be punished. Jail time? Maybe seize their assets instead. Great debate though.
Well, at least you said the necessary about those two unfortunate three-letter guys ridiculously sanctified ever after. America's Scumbag Dynasty.
Re Russiagate? Don't all these things seem awfully seditiousy and insurrectiony? But I guess they always iz, ain't they? Me, I voted for Trump for the first and presumably only time in 2024 and I'd like him to put all the bums in jail, or at least bankrupt them via legal expenses--though even that might be denied us since dark money will likely pay their lawyers--and--cue that line from Shakespeare. Truer words, etc.
Oh well. Political systems seem to follow not the Roman or Greek models but that of the Egyptian priesthood bureaucracy which allowed no heresies against their minutely-crafted orthodoxies. So we haven't evolved at all, have we?